Rays of Light Podcast

Hi Makiko.

Hi Karisha.

Welcome to Rays of Light in the fictional village of Sunnyside.

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Sunnyside Cycling Club's annual children's bike building event is followed by a late lunch at the Shadow Self Sandwich Shop. This was Charles' first time participating in an event, and he enjoyed working hard with the other cyclists. Now he's seated between Albert and Ismael, two very talkative long-term members of the cycling club that he's wished to get to know better.

Just when Charles is thinking of what he might say to them, another cyclist walks in, and Albert and Ismael jump up to talk to her. Both tables near him are soon filled with club members, and Charles accidentally makes eye contact with Brad, who is telling Jennifer about how devastating it was to return from a trip to find his home had been burgled. Brad starts to address Charles as well, talking about how his house hasn't felt the same since.

“You think that's bad”, Charles says enthusiastically.

“When I lived in Seattle in the late 90s, someone broke the door handle of my unlocked Jeep Cherokee. I didn't mind the loss of my third CD player, but why did they expend the energy prying the handle off without even trying it first?” He continues speaking for a few more minutes until they say they have to go. Charles smiles after them, feeling like he's finally made some connections.

At the next ride, Charles waves at Brad and Jennifer, but they don't seem to notice him. When he gets close enough to say hi, Jennifer responds with a slight smile and nod, but nothing else. His attempt to begin a conversation fails. And soon the others are riding off together. He is sick and tired of how everywhere he goes, everyone already knows each other, and no one seems to have interest in meeting someone new.

Charles was excited to retire nine years ago when he turned 60. But now, at 69, he mostly finds himself scrolling through social media and watching endless YouTube videos. He has two daughters from his first marriage with Olina, but they live far away and seem frantically busy with their own lives.

His second wife Holly had a son from a previous relationship, and he's another person Charles relates to mostly through online posts. He was married to Holly for 12 years, and they've been divorced for three, but while she often appears in photos with her son and his family, Charles finds it hard to get a scheduling commitment from them. He's been divorced from Olina for over 20 years, and she still tries to keep him involved with their girls' lives, but she remarried long ago, and he can't stand her judgmental second husband.

Charles doesn't enjoy life anymore. Everything just seems a bit off. He wonders if he might be depressed. He's on six health-related prescriptions already, and he doesn't like having to take them. If he goes to his doctor or to a psychiatrist, they'll probably try to get him on another one. When he was in his late 30s, he used a hypnotherapist to quit smoking. It worked, but that was long ago, and he doesn't even remember the name of the person that helped him.

After some online searching, Charles decides to try Luke Cantrell, who has a straightforward website. When they talk a few days later, Charles finds himself unable to articulate what he wants help with. He tells Luke a lot about his life, the two divorces, and his retirement from his career as a software engineer after first working as a railroad mechanic.

“But none of this has to do with my current situation,” Charles says. When Luke asks what he would like to help with, the best Charles can come up with is “To feel better, to enjoy things.” He's unable to get more specific than that because he's just not sure what's wrong.

K: So Charles never says he's lonely, but he seems to be unable to connect with others while feeling the strong desire to do so, which I describe as loneliness. And this is a really serious and common issue that can cause not only mental, but also physical harm, making our entire lives feel meaningless, even miserable.

M: Yeah, and the key part is, as Karisha said, while having a strong desire to connect. Because some people are perfectly happy with a lot of space around them. Being alone doesn't really cost them anything. The difference isn't how much connection someone has or wants, it's whether they are reaching for more of it, but not finding it.

Also, Charles not being able to clearly explain his issue. This actually happens a lot. We know something feels off, but we can't name what it is exactly.

K: Right, because we're caught up inside it.

M: Yeah. Like with physical illness, what we usually know is a symptom or symptoms, like a pain with unknowing what caused it. And the doctor's job is to find the cause and diagnose.

Of course, we're not doctors and we don't diagnose. There isn't even a need for that anyway.

M: But through conversation, we often find the same thread that keeps showing up in a few different parts or aspects of someone's life, even in places that don't seem connected at first. So it's perfectly fine to just describe what feels off and what you don't like. Then we can gradually shift to what you want and desire. Right.

At his first hypnotherapy session with Luke, Charles talked about how most of his relationships and interactions are online and how everyone at the cycling club seems to know each other already.

“They aren't interested in getting to know anyone new,” he complains.

“Everyone I used to spend time with is far away or too busy, so we only communicate electronically. I know what's going on in their lives and sometimes we exchange messages, but it's not that satisfying.”

K: So I just wanted to say something really quick. So it's wonderful that online communities exist and it's a very convenient way to stay in contact with people through social media and to get to know different people and to talk to people from different parts of our lives who are in different places.

K: But at the same time as online interactions have been growing, so have feelings of loneliness. So that's just been showing us that online isn't a replacement for live interactions and socializing without ever meeting someone in person can possibly even increase feelings of loneliness, isolation, and depression, at least for some people. On the other hand, strong in-person social networks, they tend to lower rates of depression and anxiety. Being able to see, hear, and speak with people is vital.

Luke asks Charles what his typical day looks like.

“Well,” Charles says slowly, “I'd say it looks pretty bleak.”

“Do you have any daily habits that you tend to do at the same time or in the same place?” Charles sighs.

“Not really. I drink coffee every morning, but I just do it at my kitchen counter with the television on.”

“Is there a coffee shop or a diner near where you live?”

“Yes, there are a few. I've walked to Minions of the Moon Cafe before.”

“How would you describe the cafe and the people you've met there?”

"Hmm, well, it's a nice place, comfortable, everyone smiling and saying hello, even to people they don't know. Great staff.”

“What do you think about making a plan to go there at the same time on the same day once or more a week?” Charles shrugs.

“Well, I could do that, but I don't know the people there.”

“Just leaving the house, being around others, and having a shape to the day can be helpful.”

“I don't know,” Charles says reluctantly.

“I won't know anyone there.”

“You don't have to talk to anyone. Just drink your coffee and smile back at people that smile at you. Bring a newspaper or a magazine to read.”

After a pause, Charles agrees to give it a try. Then they continue on with the first session's suggestibility testing.

K: So what Luke's setting up here is, first off, getting some kind of a ritual into Charles' life because rituals and routines have been shown to help with loneliness. They help give life meaning. At the same time, becoming a regular often leads to more human interaction and sometimes even social connections. Of course, it needs to be a nice place with really friendly, welcoming people. So you have to choose well.

K: I used to live in LA and I had a lot of in-person routines, like going to the library and the bank and certain stores. And I had a lot of casual but fun and meaningful connections with people at all those places. One librarian would always put aside books she thought I'd like, and I had some long-running jokes with the clerk at my bank and we would just be laughing so hard everyone was looking at us. And a young cashier at a store I went to regularly would actually brighten up with excitement as soon as she saw me, and I never knew why.

K: So now I live in a much smaller and really friendy city. LA's not that friendly. And my friends. But I do way more things online or at varying times, like I don't do them at the same time of day. So I don't have any of those types of casual yet meaningful relationships or connections anymore.

M: Yeah, I actually went through something similar after COVID. You know, so much of life had moved online, whether it be meetings, socializing, that I noticed that I'd lost a lot of my offline connections. So I found a few meetups that actually matched my interests and that made, you know, a big difference in my social life.

M: Also, Charles being hesitant about following Luke's suggestion to go to the cafe could be, could be fear of rejection. He's more relationship oriented. And he already feels like people he meets are not interested in connecting with him or connecting with new people. And so his subconscious may be flagging risk.

K: Right. And Luke is kind of pushing it a bit. But yeah. I mean, I guess really trying to get him out of the rut. I mean, that's not something I would necessarily do, but. Oh, also, I want to give a shout out to Mark Tyrell from Uncommon Goods, who has a lot of great ideas about really everything, including loneliness.

By his second session, Charles has been to Minions of the Moon Cafe three times at seven in the morning. And although he hasn't had a conversation with anyone, he tells Luke that the days he went were far better than the days he didn't. They plan some other rituals Charles can do on his own. And then they talk about setting times for meals and exercise to give his days further shape.

Luke asks, “Can you think of the last conversation you had with someone?”

After a moment, Charles nods.

“Describe what you remember to me.”

“Hmm, I can't. Well, there was a woman with a dog. She smiled but didn't seem interested in talking.”

“What did you say to her?”

“I asked if I could pet the dog and she said yes and told me his name. And I told her about the last dog I had 10 years ago and about this trick he would do where he stood on his hind legs and jumped a few times. She smiled and then said have a good day and walked away.”

“How did you feel about that interaction?”

“It seemed to go well. I wish she'd stayed and talked more. She ran into someone else a little down the path and they chatted away for a long time.”

K: So when Makiko and I discuss these scripts, it's always interesting to see our different perspectives based on everything that goes into our life experiences, which always reminds us of our clients and how unique each one is.

M: Yep, definitely. So true. And this is actually a good example that I brought up to Karisha. So Charles stands there for a long time watching this lady, you know, practically a stranger, or she is a stranger, with a dog chat with someone else. To me, that reads pretty alarming. If I was the lady, you know, I mean, just imagine some stranger watching me for a long time, regardless of the reason, it's pretty unnerving to me.

M: But also for me, I thought about this. If this had happened in Japan, then I may not feel as alarmed. I might just let it slide as, oh, someone who's maybe a bit quirky or strange, you know. So these feelings are very much subjective, depending on the person as well as the circumstances or the environment.

K: Right. Expression on their face, if you notice.

Luke says, “Do you think you have an easy time getting along with others?”

“Yes.”

“When you talk to people you don't know well, do they ever seem to extend the conversation?” Charles thinks about this and then says,

“No, not really.”

“What do you think the reason for that is?”

“I have no idea.”

“What do you think it might have to do with?”

“People already have friends and don't need more.”

“Last week, you mentioned doing the cycling club and participating in that wonderful bike building event. You said that you had good conversation with a couple of people, but then they left and didn't seem interested in talking again. Any ideas why?” Charles shakes his head.

“They just already all know each other.”

“How about we put you in hypnosis and together, we'll create a visualization of a similar type of situation so you can view yourself objectively in that interaction and tell me what you see and hear.” A Charles nod, Luke adds.

“And then how about we visualize another situation where you don't do anything but ask questions and respond to what other people say.”

“Sure," Charles says. In imagining himself having a similar home break-in discussion with different people, Charles says the same sorts of things and sees himself being friendly and engaging and the other people being dismissive of an outsider.

They move on to Charles feeling calm and confident in the cafe, then him starting a conversation where he asks questions and enjoys hearing the answers. Afterward, Luke recommends Charles try conversation where he focuses on the other person just to see what happens.

“Consider it a shared experience rather than an attempt to make friends.” Luke says, “It's not about interrogating the person, just see if you can learn about them and focus on them.”

“I'll try it,” Charles says.

“One of my colleagues has a sign over her desk that says, ‘Be curious about everything. You will do marvelous work. It is curiosity that brings joy.’ I don't know where she found it. A lack of curiosity on my part.” Charles chuckles, then nods his head a few times.

“I like the idea of being curious about everything. I'll see if it brings me joy. And if it does, maybe I'll make my own sign.”

K: So there are skills people can develop if they struggle to make friends. Some people like Charles have no idea they're putting people off. Others realize it, but they don't know why. And of course, some people do it on purpose. So a lot more goes into interactions than the words that are spoken, of course. But everyone can improve their social skills.

M: Yeah, nonverbal cues, you know, the tone of voice, body language carry a huge part of that. And that's part of why texting can cause so many misunderstandings. You lose all of it. All of that, you know, nonverbal cues. Even a phone call will only get you halfway there. You know, you get the tone of voice, but none of the body language.

K: Yeah, I have someone I text with and I'm often annoyed with their text. But then when we're in person or on Zoom, they're the greatest person ever. So I know I'm just misreading the real tone that is meant because they're not different, you know, at that point. And even though I know that, I still will get frustrated by the text themselves. So one example.

Nearly a week passes before Charles has a chance to practice his conversational curiosity. Gwen and Joel, the co-owners of the cafe, come over to officially welcome him and to say there's no charge for anything he buys that day, so he might as well have breakfast too.

“Bridger said you became a regular when we weren't looking,” Joel says cheerily.

"Bridger is great,” Charles says. “I love this place. Sit down if you have a second, but no worries if you are busy.” They both pull chairs up to his table.

“We have time. My shift is ending and Joel's is beginning.” Gwen explains.

“I was curious about how the cafe started and I love the motto. I'm not a night person, but it makes me laugh every time I see it.” They talk about the history of the cafe for a few minutes.

"We are just starting to introduce some evening activities,” Joel says as he stands up.

“So keep an eye on our socials and we'll probably have notices on the tables too.” Gwen adds. “We'll also add them to the board out front the day of, but as you can tell, we're still getting organized.”

Even though he tries to tell himself it's just good customer service for them to talk to him, Charles feels like they genuinely like people. The next chance he gets to speak to someone, it's another person walking a dog, and he realizes when discussing it with Luke later that he talked about his own dog of the past and didn't ask any questions.

“That's okay, you'll remember next time,” Luke reassures him.

“What do you think about going back to the cycling club?”

“It is a good exercise,” Charles says.

"And you said you love cycling.”

“I do. I will go back, like you said before, even if I don't make friends there. It's still more enjoyable doing it with a group than on my own. And any chance I get, I'll be curious. You know, I recently remembered something Holly used to say about me. I never took her seriously, but maybe she was right. She said I wasn't that interested in other people. She also said I thought common occurrences from my life were fascinating and that I'd tell them repeatedly and that people's eyes would glaze over and they'd be desperate to escape.”

“Do you think there's any truth in that?”

"I don't know. I did tell my same dog story to both of these people, and it is from long ago. I never noticed that before.”

“Well, whatever happened in the past, you're on a different path now, the curiosity crusade.”

“Yeah,” Charles says with a slight smile.

Charles makes small talk with various people at the cafe over the next few weeks, and he notices that when he remembers to be curious, they react more positively the next time they see him. He admits to Luke that he must have been causing at least some of his social problems. He keeps going to the cycling club, focusing on what he enjoys about it, and one day when Ismael gets a flat tire, he and Charles are behind the others.

“You don't happen to carry a pump, do you?” Ismael asks, holding up his replacement tube.

“No, but I have a CO2 cartridge.” Ismael smiles.

“Excellent, thank you.” He says as Charles fills the tube.

"You've saved me from teasing. I was touting this brand of tire just based on their marketing.

“Uh, no worries. All tires go flat,” Charles says.

“Sure, but I've been annoying Albert about these. He's a good friend, but some days I'm not in the mood to take my medicine.” Charles laughs.

“I get it.” He says as they take off. “My daughters have been known to call me on my nonsense. Do you have kids?”

“Yes, and my son might come riding with us when he visits next week,” Ismael says.

Charles asks questions about Ismael's family, and by the end of the ride, they're joking back and forth. Albert joins them, and they decide to sit by the river to cool off before heading to their respective homes. Albert mentions a barbecue at his house the upcoming Saturday and invites them both.

“What should I bring,” Charles asks, somehow leading to a long conversation between the other two men about the best brand of corn chips. By the time they part, Charles is still uncertain what he should bring, but he feels like he's made some friends.

Thank you for joining us in Sunnyside.

Thank you to High Street Jack for our theme song. If you have a friend who might benefit from this episode, please share it.

Thank you, Karisha, for writing our stories.

Thank you, Makiko, for editing our episodes and running our website.