Rays of Light Podcast

Hi, Karisha.

Hi, Makiko.

Welcome to Rays of Light and the fictional village of Sunnyside.

Do you have any questions or comments for us? If so, please let us know. We'll include a link in the show notes.

Each episode stands alone, and today we're checking in with Daniel, who was also in our October 2025 episode.

Daniel does not understand why Mark is upset with him. A week ago, they had a full Saturday together, including dinner and a concert, followed by drinks with friends.

Before Mark went home early Sunday, Daniel described his busy work schedule for the upcoming week. But after getting home from a late Friday afternoon workout and sending Mark a text asking if he wanted to get together the next day, Mark called and yelled at him for being withdrawn and uncommunicative, as well as for expecting Mark to wait around and be available whenever it fit Daniel's mood. This dramatic response was as unappealing as it was unexpected.

In Daniel's last serious relationship, he was constantly told that he didn't know how to communicate and that he was emotionally unavailable, along with other fun descriptions like cold and self-absorbed. In this current situation, Daniel cannot identify what he could possibly have done wrong, but it's clear that the people he's attracted to find him deeply unsatisfactory.

M: What we're seeing here is a classic clash between two different types. There are those who are more mind-oriented — more analytical and sense of being in control is very important. And there are those who are more relationship-oriented, for whom closeness and communication are everything, like Mark here. And so opposites tend to attract. So, you know, that makes sense.

M: And so here, Daniel, who is more mind-oriented, did really nothing wrong. But for a relationship-oriented person, Mark, what he offered simply wasn't enough. So they have different needs and, you know, neither of them really knows about it.

K: Right. And this contrast between these two characters is based on somewhat extreme versions of these types. But the issues they experience will probably be familiar to everyone in one way or another.

M: Right. It's a matter of degree, I think.

K: That’s the word.

M: And also, you know, it depends on the culture too. Like in Japan, which is more mind-oriented culture compared to like Italy or Spain or US, then people do tend to act more like Daniel. Maybe not to that extreme, but it would not be unusual to see that kind of a tendency.

M: In the US, it would be more relationship-oriented, like, you know, Italy and Spain and Brazil and other countries. And so then communication is really very important.

K: Daniel needs to move to Japan, obviously.

Although Daniel had planned to stay home the rest of Friday evening and watch a show, read a bit, then have an early night in preparation for a fun Saturday with Mark, he now wants to get out of his condo. Daniel texts his friend and colleague Gabriella to ask if he's still welcome at game night. He and Gabriella have worked together for over 10 years as scenario analysts at a financial services firm, but he rarely accepts her invitations.

At Gabriella's affirmative response, he grabs tortilla chips and salsa from his pantry and heads over to her place, where her husband Ben has organized an elaborate fort village for what seems like a massive group of screaming children.

“We're playing forts?” Daniel asks Gabriella. She laughs at his fearful expression.

“We are escaping to the backyard. Two teenage babysitters will be arriving any minute to monitor the monsters. Our game might end up being a little wine and a little more wine.”

“Is everyone else here a parent?” Daniel asks as they walk through the kitchen and dining room to where sliding glass doors look out on the yard.

“Yes, but no parenting discussions are allowed tonight. Ben's rule, as last time none of us felt like we got a real break.”

An hour later, Daniel finds himself getting opinions on his personal life, all from people seemingly desperate to talk about anything not focused on parenting. He's annoyed that Gabriella, who he had a hurried conversation with about Mark, apparently passed the info on to her husband Ben, who shared it with the rest of the group.

“Did you text or talk at all during the week?” Ben asks. Daniel nods briefly.

“How long did you take before responding to him?” Daniel sighs.

“Can you read us what you wrote?” A woman named Jule asks.

Daniel ignores this request.

“It's very boring. I told him I'd be busy, and during the week he felt sick, so we talked about that.”

“It's deliciously boring, a man named Liam says. Boring in the way of nature and poetry and raindrops on roses.” Ben laughs.

“Daniel, he just means we love it.”

“So, none of you are dating, meeting new people?” Daniel asks, trying to turn the attention away from himself.

“Some of us are single, but none of us are dating, no.” Jule says.

“Not because we don't want to,” someone else adds. “We're just too tired.”

“We're getting perilously close to whining about our parenting duties, people.” Ben scolds. Someone asked Jule how she knows none of them are dating, and there's lighthearted insults and laughter for a few minutes until Jule says, “Back to group therapy.”

“Are we getting the therapy?” Liam asks. “Or is it Daniel?”

“We are,” Jule says. “So what happened after he said he wasn't feeling well?”

“Let's move on to another topic,” Gabriella suggests.

“Oh, come on,” Liam says. “Just tell us what you said after he said he was sick.” Wishing he'd stayed home, Daniel shakes his head.

Ben says, “Whatever it was, I'll bet it left a pain of rejection in his heart.”

“Absolutely,” Jule agrees.

Daniel doesn't like the person Ben becomes when drinking, even though he seems far from drunk.

“I'm sure it was a good response,” Gabriella says, feeling terrible about having told Ben anything. Ben and Jule shake their heads in disagreement.

“Dismissive,” Ben says. “He felt rejected, we know, based on his phone call today.”

“Can't you just tell him what you're feeling now and then?” Jule asks.

“Throw in some compliments.”

“It's over,” Daniel says. “We don't need to discuss it anymore.”

The conversation finally moves on, but Daniel has had enough, and he leaves soon after.

M: Poor Daniel. Mind-oriented people hold their emotions very close, almost like privately sacred, and they tend to analyze and process internally in trying to solve issues, and they are very selective about whom they let in. It's not that they don't feel deeply, in fact, they really do, but sharing personal struggles openly doesn't come naturally, and it wouldn't feel safe with just anyone, and that's why Daniel keeps dodging these personal questions at the party, which I don't blame him. I'd be irritated if I was him.

K: I would too, and I'm not at all like him.

M:And relationship-oriented people are the opposite. Literally, relationship is their top priority. So when something is wrong, they want to talk it out right now, but that can really feel overwhelming to someone who is more mind-oriented. Even with their intimate partner, opening up and becoming vulnerable is often a real challenge. And simply knowing which type you are and which type the people close to you are can already make a substantial difference in how you understand each other, I think.

K: Yes, it really can.

Daniel doesn't hear from Mark the rest of the weekend, and on Monday he schedules a session with Reina Ibarra, the hypnotherapist he saw for his fear of public speaking, after he was asked to talk at the funeral of his best friend Brent. At the beginning of their appointment three days later, Daniel describes his dramatic breakup with his partner Joe Walker, who was always upset with him, calling him emotionally blocked, incapable of giving compliments, unable to express love, and, during one particularly bad fight, inhumane and soulless.

“And I never had any idea what I was doing wrong. I did a lot for him.”

“What kinds of things did you do? I did all his errands for weeks when he hurt his back.”

“And how did he respond to that?”

“He didn't seem to remember once he got better. He was obsessed with love languages, claimed his was acts of service, but they never made a lasting impact.”

“So you felt like you were showing care, but he wasn't taking it in.”

“Right.”

“What about conversation? Did you share things with each other?”

“I was supportive. I listened to his work stories. Reina, I just don't know what's wrong with these people. They're endlessly demanding and never satisfied.”

Daniel tells her about what happened with Mark, and Reina says, “So how do you think Mark was feeling over the week to lead to him reacting that way?”

“I have no idea,” Daniel says.

“He claimed you expected him to be waiting around for your invitation, right?”

“Yes,” Daniel says.

“So what do you think led to that?”

"That I didn't try to make plans with him earlier? Although, why does it always have to be me doing the inviting?”

“Imagine Mark wanted to ask you about weekend plans. Why might he not have?”

“I don't know. I told him I had a very busy week.”

“How do you think he took that?”

“Not how I meant it. So, should I have said I wasn't going to be able to communicate much, but hoped we could get together the next weekend? Although, I wasn't ready to think about getting together again. I was geared up to shift my focus fully to work. Maybe I compartmentalized too much, but when I spend time with someone, they have my full attention. And I also give my full attention to work for five days, and I like to have a day to help out at the bookstore where I'm co-owner.”

“So you have a full busy life, and maybe only one day a week for a romantic relationship. Yet you seem to be attracted to men who want a bit more.”

“I think I shut down if anyone gets too needy or clingy. Or if I feel they are.”

“So, if you want to increase the success of one of these relationships, you might want to experiment with behavioral changes. What might make someone like Mark or Joe feel less needy?”

“Um, probably if I exp... I don't know. Maybe if I explained how I function, they won't think I'm rejecting them?”

“Right, because if you're interacting with people that desire more feedback, what might they be imagining when they don't get it?”

“It could seem like I don't care, or like I'm distracted by other people. And I do think taking a moment to say how much I enjoyed our time together, and even planning our next day to meet, would be better than having a fight later.”

“It might be interesting to see if those small adjustments make a difference.”

“And some people do enjoy a sincere compliment now and then.” Daniel smiles and nods. “I've been known to appreciate them myself. It might be a while before I find someone to go out with, but I'm willing to test these ideas. I wish I could be... I wish I compartmentalized less. I wish I felt like mixing my social life up more during the work week like everyone else does. I really need to be alone after work.”

“You've set your life up well,” Reina says. “A lot of people ignore how they function best and get themselves into really uncomfortable situations.”

“That's true. You know, I've been told so often that I shut down when someone wants more from me than I want to give. I really don't see it, but I'd like to understand why it keeps happening.”

“Which doesn't mean you have to satisfy their needs, nor even try to,” Reina says, “but it might help you feel less like your private time is being invaded.”

“That is how I feel.”

“Okay, so if you became aware of why you're shutting down, what might you like to think or feel in that moment?”

“Maybe just that they're uncertain or insecure?” Reina nods.

“And why are they reaching out?”

“They want to connect, right? They aren't just out to destroy my private time,” Daniel says with a smile.

“Even though it feels like it,” Reina adds.

“It does. I want to feel less resistant, less stiff and uptight when this comes up.”

“What would you like to feel instead?”

“Hmm. Maybe a softness? No, more like an openness. I'd like to feel open to understanding they work differently than I, and to the idea that I can do something small to help them and to help myself have better relationships.”

“That sounds great. Anything else before we do some hypnosis?”

“Calm, too. Calm and open. So I'll be able to remember that not everyone needs what I need. And so I'll feel capable of changing my process. At least the teeny bit we talked about.

M: For relationship-oriented people, even a completely neutral statement can land as rejection. And that's not oversensitivity, actually. It comes directly from how central relationships are to them. When something that important feels threatened, the fear of losing it is never far away. So when Daniel casually mentioned that he had a busy week ahead, what Mark likely heard was something closer to I don't have time for you this week.

K: Exactly.

M: That’s not what Daniel said or meant at all. But that's how it lands to someone who is relationship-oriented. And this is exactly why understanding these two different types can be really eye-opening. Not just in romantic relationships, but in any relationships whatever.

K: Oh, for sure. Pay attention to your boss if you have one, or your parents, your children.

M: Yeah, kids. How we take in information and how we respond is deeply tied to how we are wired. And as a reference, HMI, the Hypnosis Motivation Institute, actually has two wonderful free videos on this topic on their website. We'll put the link in the show notes, so definitely check that out.

K: And these videos are very entertaining.

M: Yeah, George is a great storyteller.

K: Yeah, he is. They're fun to watch. They're quite enjoyable.

The next Saturday, Daniel finds himself wishing he'd talked to Reina about his fear of confrontation. He hadn't intended to see Mark again, but the memory of how much fun they'd had has replaced his disgust over their last conversation. Still, the thought of risking an argument is unappealing.

Finally, at 5.30 in the evening, he sends a text that takes 15 minutes to write and rewrite, and in the end says, “I'm sorry about how things ended, and I wish I'd been more attentive to how you were feeling instead of focusing solely on myself and work.” Almost immediately, a pink heart appears, and Daniel takes a deep, relieved breath. He waits impatiently while Mark seems to type forever, and finally a message shows up that says, “I'm sorry for yelling at you.”

Daniel isn't sure if he should say thank you, or if that will make it sound like he thought Mark owed him an apology. As he tries to decide what response would be best, he sees that Mark is typing again.

“I'd like another chance,” Mark's message says.

“Me too,” Daniel replies. “Busy tonight?” Mark asks. Daniel calls him, and they make plans to meet for dinner.

The dinner goes well, even though Mark eventually admits to having had a headache all day, so he goes home to rest at a pretty early hour. Daniel checks in on how Mark is feeling later that night, and the headache is still raging. The next morning, Daniel's "how are you today” text is answered with a string of prayer hand emojis followed by “I feel great” in all caps, followed by a message apologizing for the caps.

“I'm just so relieved,” Mark adds.

“I get it, there's nothing worse than an endless headache,” Daniel writes. Then he wonders if there's anything else he should say. Mark wore a bright blue shirt the night before, and it was a good color on him. Daniel decides this is the perfect time for a sincere compliment, and he sends it. Mark thanks him and says he would love to get together again when Daniel's free.

At his next hypnotherapy session, Daniel tells Reina about how he and Mark are being very careful around each other, but he expects Mark will end up getting upset with him again soon.

“I know I shouldn't be expecting the worst, but it's happened so many times with so many people.”

Reina asks, “Is there anything you can do in advance to avoid getting to that point?”

“To spend time with him when I'd rather not?”

“Do you think you could have a long-term relationship with someone who required that of you?”

“No,” Daniel says firmly.

“Okay, what would you be willing to do that might help?”

“I could let him or whomever know why I'm not available in advance. I can explain this is how I live. I'm not going out with other people, but they're welcome to do so. I get that a lot of people are more connected to romantic partners than I. Probably laying things out and also being more giving in texts. I can do a phone call now and then. And if they're still mad, then it's just not going to work.”

“That's great. Exploring ways you can help someone you're dating feel more connected without doing anything that's uncomfortable for you is an excellent idea.” Daniel nods.

And then there's a long silence before he says, “There's something else. It's not connected to this issue with Mark. I've always been this way, at least since my 20s. But this is newer since Brent died. I miss having a really good friend, but when I like people, really like them, as I do my coworker Gabriella. Well, at least before she told her husband about my personal life. And Marie at the bookstore and Brent's wife Allison. I've been carefully avoiding getting as close to them as I might otherwise. I think of how they could die at any moment. And it's real. It's true. It's possible. So I can't talk myself out of it. And I don't want to feel that pain again. Not ever. I know it's better to have loved and lost and all that. But even that phrase irritates me. It's like a pillar of ice is running through the center of my body when I think about anyone I care about dying.”

Reina asks, “What would you like to do to that pillar of ice?”

“Melt it,” Daniel says. Reina nods.

“Where does the pillar of ice begin? In my chest, right below my throat. And it goes all the way to the bottom of my abdomen.”

“Okay, let's focus on melting that,” Reina says as Daniel closes his eyes for hypnosis.

M: A quick note here. Some people feel emotions as physical sensations in their bodies and others don't. And we mention this whenever it comes up in our episodes because there's always someone new listening and we want you to know that neither experience is more correct than the other.

M: As a general tendency though, relationship-oriented people tend to be more connected to their bodies. So they're more likely to feel emotions physically. And mind-oriented people tend to process more in their head. But Daniel, who is very much mind-oriented, clearly feels it in his body. And I'm actually a little more relationship-oriented yet I rarely feel things physically. So it really is just a tendency, not a rule. However it works for you is completely valid.

K: Yeah, thank you for pointing that out. There's a lot of variations. Everyone is different.

M: Yep, totally.

A month later, Daniel and Mark have drifted apart in a friendly way while still texting now and then. Daniel's been out with two others similar to Mark in the meantime, feeling far more confident about handling their expectations and emotions in a way that leaves everyone calm and content.

Or at least calmer and more content. Based on what he discussed with Reina and memories of past relationships, he's also found that more solitary people like himself are enjoyable companions. There isn't as much exciting tension between them, but they take far less work.

Daniel invites Allison and Mellie, the wife and daughter of his best friend who died, to an event for children at the Sunnyside bookstore. The delight on Mellie's face as she toddles around after slightly bigger children has him smiling so much that Marie and others comment on it.

“I'm trying to get Daniel to join in with children's storytime now and then,” Marie tells Allison.

“Once, we convinced him to act out a story with some other staff members, and he was a hit.”

“Oh, how fun,” Allison says. “We'll definitely come anytime Daniel's involved.”

Marie gives Daniel a triumphant look.

“Also, we have an ongoing contest to rename the bookstore, if you have any ideas. It's been doing so well that we keep pushing the deadline further out. All proceeds go to local nonprofits.”

Mellie hurries over to her mom, holding out a book another child gave her. She babbles away for a while, then looks shyly up at Daniel.

“Hi, Mellie,” he says. “Want me to read that to you?” She holds the book up to him and he takes it before crouching down to be closer to her height. Then she grabs the book back, drops it, giggles, and touches his knee before wobbling away while looking at him over her shoulder. She runs into a chair, falls, and then stands again, smiling all the while.

“I admire how she doesn't cry,” Daniel says, “but I have no idea what I'm supposed to do here.”

M: So, just to be clear, it's not that we think that not crying is admirable, it's just Daniel's opinion.

K: Yeah, he's just not very comfortable with children, as we saw from the earlier scene.

M: So, just saying, this is purely Daniel's view.

K: This is not the view of the podcast version.

M: Okay, I think, at least my generation, Japanese male tend to think that crying is not good, especially for men. I mean, Mellie is a girl, but she tripped, and if it didn't hurt, naturally the kids wouldn't cry, especially if the floor was padded for the kids' section or whatever, then nobody probably would cry, it wouldn't hurt. But if it hurt, it would be perfectly normal for the kids to cry.

K: Yeah, we totally support crying. Even for adults, it's perfectly okay to cry. I mean, it's a really good way to vent things out. And not that a lot of people have trouble crying, too. So, we're just not really making any judgments about crying or not crying at this moment.

M: Right, that's right. This is just purely Daniel's thinking.

Daniel asks Allison, “Does Mellie want me to chase her?”

"At home, I sometimes crawl after her. She mainly wants an audience, I think.”

Mellie has spotted a much younger baby in a stroller and is reaching out a hand to touch the child. Allison rushes over and scoops her daughter up, and Mellie now starts to cry.

“It's past nap time,” Allison tells Daniel.

“She'll zonk right out once she's in the car. Thank you for inviting us. This was really fun.”

Allison and Daniel hug with Mellie now, wailing between them.

“I hope you'll finally come over for dinner next time I invite you,” Allison says sternly as she hurries off.

"I will,” Daniel calls after her, and he means it.

Thank you for joining us in Sunnyside. If you enjoyed your time with us, please share this episode with a friend. Thank you to High Street Jack for our theme song.

Thank you, Makiko, for running our website and doing our post-production work.

Thank you, Karisha, for writing our stories. ¶¶